Curse

*lemming* · Apr 24, 2011, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Buffing a class to make it viable does absolutely nothing to promote variety if the class being buffed is so painfully overpowered that it relegates other classes filling the same role to extinction.

The numbers don't lie. Before the dervish update, there was a healthy mix between warriors, assassins, and builds with no frontline. In the first month after the update, we saw a lot of dervishes. But for those claiming that dervishes are just a flash in the pan until people learn to counter them, take a look at the fun facts and statistics of the March monthly, which was after the first dervish nerf.

All indications are that the April monthly will be exactly the same, that the second dervish nerf will have been completely worthless in terms of promoting frontline variety.

floor · Apr 24, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selket

Sins don't suffer from diversion at all unless you:
Don't know how to cancel attack skills
Aren't at all watching casting animations

On the topic of Dervishes being OP, at least playing a Dervish is actually fun, since you use all your skills all the time. That's more active than pretty much anything else in the game at least in terms of damage. Warriors haven't been fun since primal rage/endurance was good.

Some of ur post really made me laugh, like a lot. So you actually expect people to have their inventory open and take weapons off etc, in order to cancel attack skills, in about 0.25s total, in order to not eat a diversion. dam man u got some super fast reflexes there.

Also in pve, i can imagine that doing huge amounts of damage to massive balls of enemies is fun. After all, pve is basically run up to a mob, kill it, run to the next mob, so the less time it takes to kill the mob the better. Unfortunately when u have such a character in pvp, you are unable to play any other profession because dervish pumps more damage, has equal speed buffs, interupts, huge armour etc. You name it the dervish has it. This has reduced build diversity (ie- fun) to zero.

I should also point out that when people post here and they say something is ok in pvp, yet their idea of pvp is RA and AB, i should point out you really have no idea what you are saying. These arenas are in no way tactical, and they are full of people with bad armour, and bad bars. This is not "serious business" pvp. It is entirely random and non structured.

Dervishes have ruined GvG and HA completely <-- The only pvp that used to require a brain and some skill no longer does.

*lemming* · Apr 24, 2011, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Some of ur post really made me laugh, like a lot. So you actually expect people to have their inventory open and take weapons off etc, in order to cancel attack skills, in about 0.25s total, in order to not eat a diversion. dam man u got some super fast reflexes there.

He's referring to the fact that using attack skills out of order eats the diversion.

Chthon · Apr 24, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

OK, we get it: Dervs are overpowered in PvP. What I'm not seeing are any specific thoughts on how to fix dervs without turning them back into a garbage class.

Here is my feeble attempt at doing so. Changes appear in bold.

Aura of Thorns

Quote:

5e, 10r
Flash Enchantment Spell. For 15 seconds, whenever a foe hits you with an attack, that foe is Crippled for 3...7 seconds. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes begin Bleeding for 5...13 seconds.

Crippling Sweep

Quote:

5e, 8r
Scythe Attack. If this attack hits a foe, that foe is Crippled for 3...6 seconds. This skill deals +3...13 extra damage if that foe is moving.

Crippling Victory

Quote:

8a
Scythe Attack. If this attack hits a foe, that foe is Crippled for 3...6 seconds. If you have more Health than target foe, all adjacent foes are also Crippled and take 10...26 earth damage.

Fleeting Stability

Quote:

5e, 10r
Flash Enchantment Spell. For 2...5 seconds, you cannot be knocked down and each time you would be knocked down, you are healed for 40...88 health instead.

Featherfoot Grace

Quote:

10e 1/4c 15r
Enchantment Spell. Lose all stances. For 5...15 seconds, you move 25% faster, and conditions expire 25% faster. Featherfoot Grace ends if you enter a stance.

Harrier's Haste

Quote:

10e 12r
Flash Enchantment Spell. Lose all stances. For 2...7 seconds, you move 25% faster and deal +3...10 more damage against moving foes. Harrier's Haste ends if you enter a stance.

Wearying Strike

Quote:

5a
Scythe Attack. [Y]ou inflict a Deep Wound for 3...9 seconds and suffer from Weakness for 10 seconds.

Grenth's Aura

Quote:

10e, 10r
Flash Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, you deal 10...42 less damage and steal 5...21 Health whenever you hit with a scythe attack. When you cast this enchantment you steal 5...21 Health from all adjacent foes.

Heart of Fury

Quote:

SPLIT FOR PVP
5a
Stance. For 2...6 seconds, you attack 25% faster.

Avatar of Balthazar

Quote:

5e, 2c, 20r
Elite Form. For 10...74 seconds, you gain +20 armor against physical damage, [] your attacks deal holy damage and strike for +0...10 damage, and whenever you lose a Dervish enchantment, nearby foes are set on fire for 3 seconds. This skill is disabled for 45 seconds.

floor · Apr 24, 2011, 07:50 PM // 19:50

i agree with u lem, but that was a separate point he made. Actually cancelling an attack skill to not eat diversion is just not practical and in reality u wont do it.

pingu666 · Apr 24, 2011, 09:03 PM // 21:03

theory crafting
OgGjMtqI7ShagFWgLFiboblbCAA

OgejkuqJrOnb3M6mcXuF3pXBAA

might be terribad, but ive tried to copy/emulate this build http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/an..._Smash_Warrior, but with a dervish primary.

13mystisim would give you +13al, +10 from blessed or windwalkers on average
93al +25hp(chest piece)

hammer warrior would have 80/100, + 30ishhp from surivor insigs, 3 damage absorbtion, and + 1 sec on knockdown

pingu666 · Apr 24, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

just realised rending aura is kinda useless on 2nd build xD, oops

pah01 · Apr 24, 2011, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Why is it that there are still people that don't understand the game enough to know how obvious it is that Dervishes are broken badly posting here?

Fate Crusher · Apr 24, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

for all of the people complaining about my psots and quoting me(LOL) i was only saying random things at the top of my head that prove u can have an IMS and IAS at the same time. thats it....

all-in-all logic behind a sword hitting more than one foe same as the scythe i just cant see happening,m even samurai only got to like 2 foes, the blade curves on a scythe because it harvests wheat in bulks.... a sword is meant to take down one foe at a time.

not only that if warriors did have the ability to hit multiple foes with a sword wouldnt that be kind of OP in itself, Dervish cant use a shield along with their scythe yet warriors can and warriors have the most armor now right?

multiple foes + sword = 100b

Then don't quote me lol. Your analogies were terribly flawed and people picked up on how you were ultimately clasping at straws. Should I really explain to you the drawbacks of all the examples you gave?

Not to mention how those skills are being used on 60AL professions. Storm Djinn's is also mainly used for kiting. Offensively for a sin it's terrible if you're trying to spend energy on a combo and also forced to lose -1 energy per second of running (which will be around -2/3 between attacks). WotA is an elite. Need I also mention that Assassins prove their worth unloading their chains as spike damage, whilst the all-powerful Derv will casually auto attack. It means a Sin needs bar compression skills like WotA to seem even slightly viable because if they want to be deadly little assassins, they need 5/6 combo skills or other utility skills.

Soothing and Natures Renewal revolve around your team build and those two skills usually make up a 4-man backline or hexway. They're not viable in 4v4 nor in GvG unless you're planning to play a heavily territorial game, which is silly when trip-melee derv teams with brains can just collapse on their split and just play away from your spirits. even more yawn.
Soothing images can only work on a bar that can maintain the energy as well and provide enough pressure against the rest of the team. Seriously, to counter such physical/conditional pressure (someone has already mentioned) those skills have been casually nerfed throughout the years and mean there's less to choose from.

My friend's AoB build for Random arenas has 2 attack skills, Wearying Strike and Twin Moon Sweep, the rest are to aid him in auto attacking (Lyssa's, Aura of thorns bla bla).... yawnfest.

In HA, you've got players asking what's the best way to counter it, shutdown the Dervs (but sacrifice killing power) or manage the dervs and attack the backline. The problem is the 123 migraine mesmers who on most occasions set up 1 migraine on healer and 1 on your midline, such as your bsurge ele. It's very negative gameplay but hey-ho - welcome to GW 2011.

Side note:

Logically a scythe was a farming tool made only into a weapon in Feudal lands such as China when farmers and peasants weren't allowed weapons and so resorted to their farming tools. Idealistically, it's a pointless weapon that was only stylised by artists because of it's unique shape. The most effective weapon was a Roman Gladius that was short enough to provide terrible penetrative power.

Also, they fixed the "swap weapon in inventory to cancel" a while ago. Not sure their reason why but I wouldn't be surprised if it was being abused by macro users (crippling shot springs to mind)

Ka Tet · Apr 24, 2011, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

you've got to start think'n like a Dervish man!

Dervishin' is Charlie Sheen's anti-drug.

Missmelady · Apr 24, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

To be honest I have yet to really have too many issues with dervs. It isn't that they are OP'ed but the fact that 90% of the teams tend to ball and or kite into there monks. Had this dervish update been brought out 2 years ago I am pretty sure 90% of the people would have turned there backs on it.....

To get straight to the point it isn't that they are Oped it is just the lack of talent on most teams in Ha nowadays. Over the past 4 years the brain power of the pvp community(mainly Ha) has gone from being somewhat smart to, let's sit here and turn the doorknob for fun dur!!!

As for the Op (LOL at the sarcasm, and LOL at prolly 50% of these posts taking it srsly)

As Charlie Sheen puts it. Dervishes are like total freakin rockstars from mars man.

deluxe · Apr 24, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Why is it that there are still people that don't understand the game enough to know how obvious it is that Dervishes are broken badly posting here?

That's why I posted in riverside, the replies from clueless pve players who take my OP serious are just priceless.

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Darnit deluxe shush!

I still want to hear more about how easy it is to shut down these "rock stars from mars" who instant cast aoe's, automatically lose conditions and hexes, punish enchant removal, automatically out heal typical anti-melee, have permanently higher armor in a dress than someone wearing a Buick, can ignore most damage mitigation with non-targeted effect teardowns / holy damage, use both adrenaline and energy while needing less of either while passively generating as much or more of both than most other classes using them. And all without ever filling in the "/any" after the "D"

I'm popping corn and biting my pillow in anticipation of the wise words to follow. Oh teach me, masters of the inane!

For I am lost in a dark place with nothing but a pacifier and glue stick to sooth me and hold together my tenuous grasp on "reality". This surely is why I cannot fathom your words oh wise masses. Have patience with me. Take me under your sheltering wings, so warm and wise. I welcome the bliss of blind platitudes you offer.

Please start with exactly how I might skillfully play and defeat Darth Vader. I am so relieved that my skill set and gear doesn't matter.
I currently have a Dull grapefruit spoon (inscription. "Breakfast Surprise Citrus Squirt" Chance to inflict blindness, mild surprise and indignity 1% while using skills) in my mainhand slot and a ball of yarn (inscription: "Aww!" Chance to look cute while using non-attack skills 100%) offand. I am ready to learn.

JSX · Apr 25, 2011, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm only leaving this open because I wonder how many people are going to not get it.

You have no idea how much each post after yours hurts me.

Eramon · Apr 25, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

On one hand , those changes are too big and would totally revolutionize gameplay since it's begin but on the other hand , i can't really disagree since the game is already an enough big joke ....

All their updates are totally illogical ( why were primal and endurance nerfed in past ??) so i don't know at all what to think....

The part in bold runs through my mind every time I participate in the broken PvP of Guild Wars and see a bunch of Dervishes.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilly willy

i was kind of referring to both pve and pvp. i do fine in pvp when i use my war. pve heroes do everything for the most part but in pvp its all you. i dont use my war in pvp much because i dont like shoehorning myself into a certain role and casters can be a little more self reliant if needed. and i know its not ahrd to upkeep stuff but i find it irritating soemtimes. i would rather be constantly doing damage then ahve to stop and get somethign back up. stances and skills are great for the war. you cna continue to attack while having some other benefits. also "smack the crap out of it" is a broad statement you dont know what im doing to the foe i could be keeping a monk knocked down or pissing off the monk in some other manner forcing him to heal himself instead of healing his buddies who my team is blasting.

also face it you know you would love extra hp on a war

its a buff that just offers more fun without being overpowered in anyway at all.

and by the way aren't all the whining threads on this forum troll threads?...

Yes I would also like +1000 health on my monk but is that good for the game? No. Warriors are balanced as they are, and why would you want extra health in the first place? You have 100AL against everything except Holy, Dark, and Chaos damage.

I'm pretty sure monks have block stances and can kite away from you. What type of PvP do you play? I'm assuming casual just from the way you are speaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

theory crafting
OgGjMtqI7ShagFWgLFiboblbCAA

OgejkuqJrOnb3M6mcXuF3pXBAA

might be terribad, but ive tried to copy/emulate this build http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/an..._Smash_Warrior, but with a dervish primary.

13mystisim would give you +13al, +10 from blessed or windwalkers on average
93al +25hp(chest piece)

hammer warrior would have 80/100, + 30ishhp from surivor insigs, 3 damage absorbtion, and + 1 sec on knockdown

Dervishes can't emulate hammer warriors because they cannot get 3 seconds of knockdown nor can they knocklock people. However, they outshine axe and sword warriors. If you look at HA or GvG you'll see that the axe and sword warrior are all but dead.

By the way, warriors speccing into 14 [weapon type] and 13 Strength should run Sentinel's Insignias and I don't think many people take the -3 damage rune.

Lawliet Kira · Apr 25, 2011, 02:45 AM // 02:45

ele rework first

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Twitch :: Twitch-Twitch :: want to have real discussion on meta impact of dervish skills... forced to be cynical and sarcastic due to thread... the pain... the conflict... I WILL SURVIVE! okay somehow that made me feel better! I think that skill only works well in the forums though. DAMN.

reaper with no name · Apr 25, 2011, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

That's why I posted in riverside, the replies from clueless pve players who take my OP serious are just priceless.

In that case, I retract my previous comment about this belonging in Gladiator's Arena.

It is quite funny to see all the people who don't realize how much the dervish is anally violating PvP with foreign objects right now.

ManMadeGod · Apr 25, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm only leaving this open because I wonder how many people are going to not get it.

I know but this thread is quite pointless.
Let's talk something useful instead of trolling.